Coping with the death of a child. Carrie's story of losing her son and the new approach she has navigating life without him.

Carrie Schmitt: 0:00

If you replace the word hard with important, it changes how you approach things. So yes, this is hard, but it's important that has really changed the way I do almost everything because I'll be honest, everything I do now is hard.

Melissa Bright: 0:16

Welcome to The Bright Side of Life, a podcast where people share their personal stories of struggles, pain and grief. But through all of that, they are still able to find the joys in life. Hello, and welcome to The Bright Side of Life. I am your host, Melissa bright. This is the first episode of the new year as I took last week off to get a little bit more organized for 2022. I hope you all had a wonderful new year. And I hope that 2022 is treating you well thus far. I do not know if this is your first time joining us here. Or if you have listened to every episode in which if you have I love you very much. But if you have not yet subscribe to the podcast, please be sure to do so on your favorite listening platform so you never miss an episode. And if you just love, love, love the podcast so much. And you would like to support the show, you can do so by writing a review on the website, sharing your favorite episodes on social media and with friends and family. Or lastly, you can make donations by going to the donate page on the website. Whatever you choose to do, however you choose to support the podcast, I am very grateful. And also you can do all of that stuff right on the bright side of life podcast.com. Today, I am interviewing Carrie Schmidt. And I am not going to lie to you guys, this episode is going to be on the heavier side. But when has that that's not really any different from any of my other episodes. But I want to say that kind of as a caveat, because this is a very important topic that we are talking about. Today we are going to be talking about child loss, we're going to be talking about grieving. But it's an important conversation that we need to have. And if you I don't know if this is your first episode that you listen to mine, or if this is your 62nd episode that you heard of mine, but my intention for the bright side of life is for it to be. There are very hard topics in this world that everybody experiences and we can't as a society act like they don't happen every single day. So I started my podcast, it's called the bright side of life. But that doesn't mean that we're always on the bright side of life. For me, that meant I went through a lot, a lot of loss and a lot of tragedy. And I'm just trying to live on the bright side of life after all of that. And so, my guest Carrie is basically doing the same thing. And I just don't want listeners to think that, oh, we just make it to the bright side of life. And we're there and there's never any dark and there's never any happy times there is a constant going back and forth. So I just like to clarify what that episode or what my podcast you know what the title really means if this is your first time listening to it, so we're going to get through today. I wanted to tell Carrie a story. First I'm going to bring her in because I've been babbling a little bit but Carrie, she is a mother. She is a former surrogate. She's an angel parent, childhood cancer advocate advocate for grief and sibling loss, St. Baldrick's volunteer event organizer or organizer, podcast hosts which we will talk about an a founder of a nonprofit called love like Jackson and a writer as well. Carrie, welcome to the show. How are you doing this morning?

Carrie Schmitt: 4:11

Thank you, um, you know, today is not a bad day. Um, and so for me, I've gotten to a point where, okay, is it's acceptable, you know, I can't say I have a lot of great days. I tried to make them as good as I can, but I'm living after you've had a child die. You know, it's a hard life. It's a hard life. I can't sugarcoat it. Um, I have a young child who still needs me and so he is the reason that I continue to put one foot in front of the other. Yeah,

Melissa Bright: 4:49

and I appreciate your honesty so much. And I'm going to tell you a little story. We've We've kind of already talked about it a little bit today, but I'm I'm also going to tell my listeners this morning, I started listening to Kerry's podcast, beautiful tragedy, and I knew her story before her podcast, but I didn't know the details the of the magnitude, not the magnitude. That's not what I meant to say, I just didn't know all the details, I just knew that you had lost a child and that you were advocating for stuff and so on and so forth. So, I listened to several episodes today. I not only cried when I was listening to your podcast, I also cried in the shower, while listening to you and your husband's episode. Um, and it's just been a really emotional morning for me. Well, then, I have a 19 year old daughter and I was telling her who I was about to interview and it's gonna be heavy and telling her the story. In the background, I have been playing Van Morrison music for a while. And I told the Alexa whoever Google to play Van Morrison, today, I have listened to the same playlist for I don't know, the last three weeks. And today the song as soon as I got done telling your story, sweet Melissa came on, which is who I was named after that song by the Allman Brothers. And it's very weird to me, because I don't know if you know my story, but I have lost both of my parents. I just lost my dad last January. And that was almost a sign from them. Like, Melissa, you're here doing what you're supposed to be doing. Having these hard conversations with these people, we know that this is going to be a heavy conversation, but you are the person to be to do that. And to navigate this. And I was just like, you know, I wasn't scared to, to have today's conversation. But I just I was like, emotional. And so I almost think I'm also emotional, because I really feel like my parents are here with me. Like when you're just on the edge of tears, and I'm like, is that just them being here right now? And I hadn't told you that story yet. So it's just like, I'm not in a bad mood. I'm not sad, just emotional.

Carrie Schmitt: 7:10

Well, this is hard stuff. I mean, it's it's really hard. And one of the things our therapist says is if you replace the word hard with important, it changes how you approach things. So yes, this is hard. But it's important. And so you know, that has really changed the way I do almost everything, because I'll be honest, everything I do now is hard. Because everything I do, I'm thinking about Jackson, I'm thinking about what we're missing. I'm thinking about what Ivan is missing as a sibling. I'm thinking about our our family unit is no longer whole. But I know and when you get those signs, and those signs are everything, like those are the signs that will keep you moving. When you're just like, you know, this is tough stuff. So I love I love signs, and I definitely think you're doing the right thing. So yeah,

Melissa Bright: 8:05

well, thank you. So along with that, like with Carrie story, she has had so many amazing guests on her podcast, and she's only had it a very short time. So we I'm just absolutely amazed at the work that you have done in the in the three, short three to four short years that you've been doing it because mine told me 10 years, okay, two and a half I Okay. And I'm just like, I was not there at two and a half years after I lost my mom. It's been 10 years now. So I'm just like, absolutely astounded by people like you that can get up every day. And I know it's not easy, but oh my gosh, you are doing such great work for other people that that can't necessarily do what you're doing that can't talk about it that can't get out of bed that can't and not saying that that doesn't look like that some days for you. But we're going to talk about a lot of stuff because some people don't know how to navigate these hard topics. You know, what does it look like? In a marriage after you lose a child? What does that look like for a sibling after they've lost their siblings, and Carrie is a wealth of knowledge. So that's what today's conversation is going to be about. So Carrie, I'm going to just ask you kind of like your first episode, I'm going to ask you to share your story as much or as little as you want. kind of you know, you're talking about you being a surrogate and all that stuff, and I'm just gonna let you lead the way.

Carrie Schmitt: 9:37

Okay, um, so I am married to Mike and together we have two sons Jackson and I then he has a daughter from a previous marriage. We've been married for 11 years. I had been in social work for 18 years. Working with people with disabilities. I quit when Ivan was five, seven months old. So it's been about five and a half years that I've been a stay at home mom. Jackson was born in 2012. I had a wonderful pregnancy. I'm one of those people that absolutely loves to be pregnant. I feel really good. I just I really like it. Within my body responds to it the way it does. I have always had surrogacy on my heart. And it really never made one ounce of sense to me, because I actually offered to carry my best friend's baby for her who had been having fertility issues. When Jackson was to, we went through all the lawyers, doctors, ultrasounds, medicine, we did an embryo transfer, it worked. And then it was a chemical pregnancy. So we tried one more time. And that one did not work at all. And it was absolutely devastating. Because you put so much into it, your heart, your soul, money, medication time, all that. And so that desire just never went away for me. I went on and had another son Ivan, he was born in 2015. And, strangely, I, when Ivan was two, I literally butt dialed the lady that I went to high school with who owned a surrogacy agency. And I'm like, wow, I guess since I'm on the phone here, I guess we could talk about it, I'm gonna go ahead and be a surrogate. And so I got the whole I did the whole process. Um, you know, you kind of state what your desires are, you know, do you want to have a relationship with the family? Or not? Do you want to transfer one embryo or two? You know, do you want to work with an agency? Do you want to go independently, I mean, there is, is so superduper involved. So I had finished out my profile. And six months later, I got matched with a couple that I did not previously know. Couple in Chicago, they actually already had two children. And I wasn't really sure how I felt about that, at first, I kind of wanted to carry my heart felt like I wanted to carry for someone who had not already had a child. But I was open to it. And when we talked, it was an absolute match made in heaven. They had two kids that were very similar age to my own children. And I mean to say it was out of a textbook, it could not have gone any better. And so we did one embryo transfer, I got pregnant, everything progressed beautifully. And so around when I was about seven months pregnant, Jackson started having pain in his leg. So he was seven at the time, he had just finished first grade. And we went to the doctor did blood work X rays, you know, something seemed off. I wanted to take them to a specialist. Still it was you know, it was like he would be in a lot of pain. And then he would be okay. And emergency room. And everyone was really blowing us off like it was growing pains because that's kind of what is typical. And back in the train up a little bit back in 2015, a friend of mine that I worked with, decided to shave her head for St. Baldrick's. And literally the reason was because she had been coloring her hair and she wanted to stop doing she wanted to grow her hair. So I'm like, Well, I don't know, I've always thought about shaving my head. I guess I'll do it. So what it started out as obviously turned into something very different. So I shaved my head 2015 16 and 17 and absolutely loved the experience got my mind just like totally blown learning about how underfunded childhood cancer is. And my The reason I did it was I just couldn't imagine having a child with cancer. And March of 2019 Jackson actually shaved his head and raised $1,200 in one night. He was the only person who shaved his head at this little trivia night. Little did we know he probably probably had cancer at the time. So I delivered a beautiful healthy baby boy, July 8, Jackson got to come up to the hospital and meet him and hold him. And so I came home and my husband was sick. And so we thought he had you know, had a stomach bug or whatever. Well then Jackson a couple days later, and he had a stomach bug too. But it was a little different. He was not rallying quite the way Mike did and so on. It was a Sunday. I gave birth on the eighth and on the 14th I took Jackson to the emergency room. We got transferred to the children hospital and we're just fire hose with information. That night, we found out that he had a nine inch tumor in his femur, we he had a flap on his mitral valve. And we weren't sure if that was something he was born with, or if it was from the cancer, or was it separate from the cancer. But also, when we took him to the hospital, we found out that he had had multiple strokes. And for the rest of my life, I will never forget how shocked I was when she said that. I remember the doctor. I remember what she was wearing, I remember that I absolutely hated this woman. You know, and I mean, it wouldn't matter who said it, or how they say who was, but she told me that my son had cancer and that he had had multiple strokes. So over the span of the next couple of days, Jackson was in the PICU, we really were holding on to hope that he was going to be fine. You know, he was young, he you know, your brain can kind of rewire and things like that. And a couple days after he got admitted to the hospital, the doctor sat us down and they said, if he has one more stroke, he could die. And we were just like, I mean, literally, he was just holding the baby that I delivered. He was swimming at the hotel, like it was like, How can this be? Right? And so at this time, my other son was only three and a half. And we really weren't prepared to bring him up to the hospital to have him see his brother with all the equipment on him and stuff. And, and also I was six days postpartum. So I'm pushing a breast pump around the PICU, I'm sitting on pillows, like I'm, you know, doing the whole deal. And so, you know, we were saying with him pretty, we were with him the whole entire time. And then at three o'clock on Saturday, July 20 3am, the doctor sat us down and told us that there was nothing more that they could do that his brain had actually herniated. Which just the thought of that just sickens me, there was they just couldn't, his brain had swollen so much he did have a total of six strokes. And so 12 hours later, he was gone. We had 12 hours. And so in that 12 hours, we knew we had to tell our other son, we knew that this was not a, you get a second chance. And that was the very first time that I put my hands up and said, I don't know how to do this, I need help. I do not know how to tell my child that his big brother died. And so the child life specialist, they really talked us through it all and helped us and, you know, we gave, we asked Ivan like, do you want to see your brother like we showed him a picture. So he kind of could be prepared for all this to stick say that kids don't actually understand the permanence of death developmentally until they're four and a half. So we were making our best guess that he was comprehending as much as he could. I mean, we could barely comprehend it. Right? He could write know. So he, when he came up there, and he wanted to see his brother and touch him. And you know, we had to use very frank terms with him. We could not use any fluffy. He passed away or we lost him because in his little baby mind, if we said, well, we lost Jackson, he would say, Well, where is he? Right? So they told us we had to say his body doesn't work anymore. He doesn't need his body anymore. He died. And to say that it was stabbing me in my already broken heart. Puts it mildly. But we, we you know, he was there. And he got to say goodbye to his brother. And it was I mean, to be honest, there's a good about three months of time that I have very, very sketchy memories. My brain was in a lot of trauma because in the span of 12 days, I gave birth to someone else's child and lost my own child. And it's as horrendous as you can fathom. It's it's it was an absolute nightmare. The shock probably carried us through for the first year and our community rallied in just indescribable ways people were doing everything for us, like laundry cleaning, cooking groceries, I did not step outside of my home for a month. And I'm so thankful that I didn't have to, because I couldn't. I mean, I look back and I'm like, Well, I hope I think got a bath during that time. Like, I mean, I literally can't remember, I don't know how our power didn't get turned off. You know, some things you can just do robotically, right now realizing it, you know? Yeah. Very quickly, I realized Ivan had debilitating anxiety. And I mean, it was a major trauma for him, you know? Yep. And we got him into play therapy. Two months after Jackson died again. And I'm like, yeah.

Melissa Bright: 20:57

Can I stop you for a minute? Because I really want to ask you because I have, and we'll talk about this in a minute. I had very debilitating anxiety from my mom passing away also. So what did that look like for Ivan? At the age of what's he? Three? Still three and a half?

Carrie Schmitt: 21:17

Yeah, he was three and a half. Yeah. Okay. He was terrified if he couldn't see me. So literally, I could not go anywhere in the house without him. Mom, were you at mom? Were you at like, he had to always see me. And sometimes I was like, Ah, I just need to think for a second. But I couldn't get mad at him. Because he's a little kid. And he didn't understand it. But I'm like, I mean, I'm not saying I didn't, I am a human. And I was with, you know, yeah. And every, it was really the, like, the object permanence. You know, it's like, he he digressed in some ways, where it was like, you know, if he couldn't see you, he didn't think you existed. But in his little in his mind, I mean, it was like, it was very real to him. If that could happen to his brother, then it can happen to my mom. And, and I have been his security blanket, ever since then. And so, with the play therapy, she could help him process some of those thoughts and feelings that I just didn't know how. And I would say, like, is this normal? Is this normal? Because I mean, none of it felt normal to me. And it all felt like, how am I going to live like this? For the rest of my life? Like, they're? I can't, I can't, you know, right. So shout would give you I'm sorry?

Melissa Bright: 22:49

No, you're fine. At what point? Two questions at what point? Did you get him into therapy? And then did you realize what he was doing? Like, Mom, where are you going? Where are you going? Did you realize that? That was anxiety and why he did that. And the reason why I asked that. It took me seven years after my mom died, to figure out that my anxiety stemmed from now the fear of losing my daughter, and my boyfriend, because those are my, you know, that's who makes my family now, and I've had at that point, I lost my mom. But that was the biggest nightmare that came true. Right? So was that like an instinct? Click? Did you know why he was asking those things? or did somebody have to tell you that he had anxiety? What, what did that look like?

Carrie Schmitt: 23:41

Um, it definitely took a little explaining for me to realize that it was anxiety. I mean, you know, at first, it was just like, I realized that it was trauma. You know, and I also, like, had done a lot of reading about, like developmental stages and stuff. I mean, I have a degree in psychology. So my interest is definitely there. I'm definitely look things up and read as much as I can, you know, so it was actually two and a half months after he died. And I know that that's very early for a lot of people. But I mean, I was so desperate for help. Because I'm like, and with my social service background, it's like, I always have connected people with resources anyway. So that was such a natural thing for me. And I'm like, well, obviously, I do not know how to do this. So I need help. And I have had to humble myself over and over and over again. Because I mean, I'm a self proclaimed control freak. You know, like, I like to be in control. And let me tell you, losing a child will show you that you have no control. Yep. And so that was tough. That was tough. And you know, so she just had Every week she gave me just one little snippet, like one little thing that would kind of comfort me and like, you know, help answer some questions in my mind. And, you know, at first he was going every week. And then if we would try to bump it out to every two weeks, it wasn't working. So we went back to every week, and then, you know, when she because she was able to just help him process because when he would start having things pinging around in his head, I'm like, Okay, it's time for an appointment. Because I and that was really what he needed so many times was help processing those feelings, because he was at the age where he's still learning how to have any kind of feelings, you know, and now he has a severe trauma, and he has nobody to play with. And he has parents for loony from what just happened and sad and scared. And, you know, so I mean, it was it was ugly. I mean, it was ugly. And I'm so thankful that I had the wherewithal, and I don't know how I really don't I mean, you know, I'm so thankful that I was able to get them in and that I had, like, whatever it took to get them there. Because it has made just a difference. Like you would not believe he, when I would take him to school. The night before school, he would say 200 times. And that's not an exaggeration. Mom, are you gonna come back to get me? Mom? Are you gonna come back to get me? Mom? Are you gonna leave me at school? Are you gonna come pick me up? And I said, Yes. And it was like, it would not matter what I said, How I said it, it was not enough. His safety and security was ripped out from underneath him. Yep. And so, and then 200 times a night before school, 100 times the morning of school, they would take him out of my arms crying, screaming, I couldn't concentrate, because I was so worried about him. Right. And it was through the guidance of His play therapist on whether or not I would send him back to school. You know, it was always all of it has been pretty much during the pandemic too, which of course, hasn't made any of it easier.

Melissa Bright: 27:24

Right? Yeah. So

Carrie Schmitt: 27:27

yeah, he, it took about eight or 10 weeks or so at school, before he kind of started to realize that he was going to be okay. And he still has, I mean, he still absolutely has anxiety, and he probably always will, because adding to what we, you know, went through with the loss of Jackson, in 2021, my husband also was very sick, and was probably about two days away from death. When he went to the hospital, he had a blood infection that damaged his spleen, his kidneys, his lungs, and his aortic valve. And on June 11, he ended up having open heart surgery. Which, of course, was very, very scary and triggering and PTSD for me, and Ivan, because I've been thought his dad was gonna die too, because in his mind, you go to the hospital and you die. Right? And how can I tell him any different when that's what happened in his experience? So Right? I would say it all really hit me pretty hard and December of this year of 2021. Okay. You know, that I'm like, Okay, I gotta get back to therapy, because I'm not in a good spot, you know? So, and I had to take care of Ivan. And then I had to take care of Mike. And in that I was forgetting to take care of myself. I was doing the outside things. Like I'm real good at doing the outside things. Yeah. Go to the gym. I get up and take a shower. You know, I go get my coffee. But dealing with those painful feelings inside. No. As my favorite thing.

Melissa Bright: 29:24

I could literally have a three hour conversation with you. I'm so many things. The first thing I want to say is that it breaks my heart to think about a little boy, Ivan, having to experience that anxiety at such a young age. Because I've dealt with it for 10 years. I have ruined so many trips with my boyfriend camping. Because he would say What's wrong babe? And I was like, life's too perfect. When When is the road going to be ripped out? from underneath me, it's already happened once now twice. And that's, I know what you saw in your podcast, and there's no guarantee that we can make anybody. I can't guarantee I'm not gonna lose my daughter or my boyfriend. And that is something that is so scary for me because the control issues first of all, and it just makes me sad to think about him. But I'm so happy that you did have the wherewithal to get him in therapy, to help with that stuff to process healings, because for so many kids, it looks different. They are told don't. You don't gotta cry, don't cry. It's okay. And then they're, they become adults, and they don't deal with those emotions. And that's not good. Something you said on one of your episodes, and I don't know who said it, but I wrote it down. Where did it go? Oh, somebody said it's Better out than in? Oh, yeah. Can you talk about that? I don't remember who said it or

Carrie Schmitt: 31:08

what yo, it was it was Ivan's play therapist.

Melissa Bright: 31:12

Okay.

Carrie Schmitt: 31:13

You know, I've been kids till grieve the way adults do. They have a very small capacity of being uncomfortable. And so, you know, Ivan would be playing with playdough. And then he would be like, he was making something one time and he'd say, Mom, look, I'm making a to like Jackson had down his throat and I'm like, okay, ouch. But then, and then he said, Mom, what's for lunch? You know, like, that's just how kids grieve. And so, you know, he would say things, and I would be overhearing during his play therapy session, some of the things that he would say, and, you know, it was our stabbing my already broken heart, but she said, It's better for him to say it than to keep it inside. And I see what happens when those thoughts are inside his head. Because not that long ago, one of his almost debilitating fears was that both Mike and I were going to die at the same time. And he would be at the house by himself. And then what would he do when he called 911? Would they take him to his mom's house? And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, what do I do with this? You know, and so I would take him to his play therapist, and we would have an emergency plan, we would say, you know, we talked about what's our address, what's our phone number? I tried to equip him as much as I could, because then when he could get that out, and then it wasn't bouncing around in his head anymore. So it's, it's, it's, it's easier for us sometimes as parents to not want our kids to feel uncomfortable. But we have really worked hard to give him that space to talk about it when he wants to. We don't force him, because there was a time where he said, Mom, I don't want to talk about Jackson all the time. Because it was obviously a very big focus. And as much as that hurt, I had to respect that from him. Because if he could verbalize that to me, then it was a it was a real issue for him. So

Melissa Bright: 33:21

yeah. Wow. Yeah, it's just so amazing that you did do the therapy, and that he does get that stuff out. And I'm just hoping, you know, if any of the listeners have experienced anything, just a loss in general and small young child is involved in that in the grieving process. These are some of the things that are important to hear that they need to get things these things out. And sometimes as parents, we don't know what to say, we don't have all the answers, but I know Carrie would say that's okay. She didn't either. That's why she got the therapy in the first place. Yeah, so I'm just I'm so so happy that you weren't able to do that. Thank you to better help for being our sponsor. If you guys think you might need to see a therapist better help is amazing. They are online, you can do it from the comfort of your own home, you have the options to message them, you can do a phone call, you can do a video chat. Whatever you feel comfortable with doing. They have several different types of therapists if you need couples or for marriage and family therapy, it's also available to individuals worldwide. Better help is a monthly subscription. So you're not paying per session and financial aid is available for those who qualify. So visit better help.com/bright side of life that's better help.com/bright side of life, join over 500,000 people taking charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced professional. And for your first month you're going to receive 10 percent off by being a listener of the bright side of life. So let them know that I sent you by using the link better help.com forward slash Bright Side of Life, the link will also be in the description section of this episode. I did not. I did not, like literally get prepare any questions just because I knew like I just jotted down notes because I knew this conversation was going to be easily like, I didn't have to prepare questions. Yes, cuz. So I did want to ask, I did want to ask you. Because one of the episodes that you do have with your husband about grieving as a couple. Are we okay to move there to talk about that? I mean, we're going to cover everything about you know, your foundation, your podcast, self care, all that stuff. But can we move they're talking about you guys grieving as a couple? Yes. Okay. So let's just ask that what, what has that looked like, at the beginning? And now two and a half years later? Where are we now?

Carrie Schmitt: 36:05

It's, um, it is horrendous to watch the person that you love, be devastated beyond recognition. And there is nothing you can do to make it better. You know, I can't fix that. And I'm a fixer. So, you know, we both show our grief in different ways. The day after Jackson died, our church, our children's pastor from our church, traveled from Oklahoma City to St. Louis, and sat in our kitchen and told us I have seen lots of child loss in my career. And he said, I see parents tend to go one of two ways. They get angry, and they get bitter, and they shut down. Or they learn how to have grief and joy at the same time, and they honor their child, neither of which are wrong. And nobody knows how they're going to react until it happens. And God forbid you hope that it never happens to anyone that you know. Yep. But he said that to me, and it was like, a light bulb went off. And I said, that's what I'm going to do. I didn't know what that look like, I had no idea what that was gonna mean. And so, you know, it tends to be with Mike and I, that he's down, and I'm okay. I'm down. And he's okay. It's not always like that. We don't plan it that way. It's, it's much easier when we're not both down because we do still have another child to take care of, you know, you know, he, I cry, cry more. I don't stifle my crying. But I'm an early morning person. So I cry a lot in the mornings, like if I'm looking at my Facebook memories, or whatever. But I talk about it so much. So I process it differently. He's not as much of a talker as I am. Right. So, you know, he at times has been upset with me for, in his mind finding a way to deal with it. But for me, it's like, I don't know, this is not a huge, like leap from what I was doing before. I was already an advocate to a certain degree. I mean, I can see it when you're scrambling. And you know, all that. I mean, he had to go back to work two weeks after Jackson died. Oh, and I mean, a think even a month would have been tough. But you know, I mean, our bereavement policy in this country is not great. So, no. So that definitely really affected him a lot. You know, one thing that our therapist told us early on, is that, you know, let the other partner grieve the way they need to grieve. And I'm really thankful that he told us that because I've seen several like online grieving groups and spouses are so angry at each other for you know, well, why does he feel this way? And, you know, he put all the clothes away or whatever, and like, you know, didn't really get each other's permission. Right? Yeah. I'm not going to paint the picture like we've got this figured out because we do not. Right. We're learning along the way we're in therapy. We go to support group we have now we're in a loss community and we have people who understand and you know, it's a club nobody wants to be a part of, but once you are, you realize how that you're not alone, first of all, and then There's other people who've been there. And that's just everything. I mean, because grieving is a very lonely, isolating emotion because it's yours as an individual. Nobody's no two people are going to grieve the same way. Even Mike and I were I've been worse Jackson and Ivan's parents, but we don't grieve exactly the same thing or the same loss. Right? So, you know, I just feel like learning how to kind of give each other that space has been something that's kept us afloat.

Melissa Bright: 40:33

Yeah, yeah. And something that I know that you said on your episode, that is so so important for people to know that are going through any kind of loss, because like Carrie said, grief is different for everybody. There's no manual, they didn't know how to do this. Like, after they didn't know what it was going to look like. They didn't know how they were going to act. They wasn't gonna be like, Oh, well, I'm going to be crying. He's not going to be crying. It's going to be his day. There is not nothing like that. But I know in your episode with him, you said that sometimes when you guys are having hard days, you have to you have to ask the other person. What is it that you need right now? Because if you don't ask them, shit could go south really quick, because you're trying to fix something that they might that you're like, I that's not what I need. And then you're like, what? And so it's so important. Just what do you need right now? Do you need a long time? Do you need a hug? Do you need to cry? Do you need to leave? What what do you need? And I think that's so important for people to know. Because that can solve a lot. A lot of maybe issues because stuff can get really dirty and anger and stuff. And it's not easy during this time. And so maybe asking, you know, ask your partner, what do you need right now? Don't try to fill in the gaps yourself. Or think like, oh, well, I know, I would want this. You don't know. And so I think that was so important. When I heard that on your episode. I was like,

Carrie Schmitt: 42:06

yes, yes. Yes, I can thank our therapist for that. I'm not kidding you. He has, he is the reason that we are where we are. Now don't get me wrong, we have done a lot of hard work to. That's one of the things that Glenn says, doing grief therapy is like touching a hot stove. Yeah. Like, a lot of people don't want to do it. But what I've learned is that not talking about it doesn't make it not exist. As much as I would like to I mean, I would throw all of this, I would give all of it away. If I could have my son back. And that is not the case. You know, I sometimes I feel like I've had some acceptance. And what Glenn also tells us is that you can accept something, but that doesn't mean you like it. Right? I can accept, I have accepted that Jackson is not coming back. I don't like it. Um, but, you know, for a long time, Mike was very much like, I want him back. I want him back. I want him back. And, you know, you think you're going to get to this point where it's like, you're going to have this clarity like, Oh, yes, I've accepted it, you know, and it's like, it just doesn't look like that. It's very messy. It's you know, and our society really wants us to think that, you know, you go through all these stages, and then you should be fine. Right? Like, everything should be fine. And, and that's just not fair. It's not true. I all the rules go out the window when it comes to child loss too. So yep,

Melissa Bright: 43:37

yeah, exactly. It i i cannot even imagine what you guys are, are going through. I mean, two and a half years just has to seem like yesterday, but then also a life time ago. I'm so happy that you guys both are in therapy, both. The whole family is in therapy. I feel like that is so huge part of my story is I lost my mom. It'll be 11 years this year. I didn't start therapy until the pandemic when the pandemic like smacked me on my face. All I wanted to do was talk to my mom during the pandemic. I pushed it down for 10 years, and my boyfriend was like, it is time for you to actually deal with your mom's death. I mean, I've been to my mom's gravesite one time and 11 years like I can. I'm very good at compartmentalizing things. But I promise you, I say this a lot on my podcast is compartmentalising. You can't push stuff down as much as you push it down. It is going to come out sooner or later. I've said it it will come out as an ailment. It will come out as anxiety. You got to process those feelings at some point and for me, yeah, it took probably about 10 years to finally process those feelings and still processing those feelings. So, I just wanted to kind of take a little bit note about that. Um, I do know that you, and I'm kind of like bouncing around on different topics. I just wanted to make sure that I covered them. But you did start your foundation love like Jackson. So can you talk a little bit how that started? And what exactly that is?

Carrie Schmitt: 45:22

Yes. So it is my heart's work. And what we do is we fund our music, play therapy and trauma informed yoga for children who have had a sibling die. Siblings are often called the Forgotten Grievers. And it's very understandable, because the attention really tends to go on the parents. And also people think that children are resilient, they'll be fine, they don't need help. Well, that's not true. When it comes to a trauma, there's a lot of research out there on what happens to unresolved trauma as adults. And you know, I have no control over whether I then becomes an alcoholic or a drug addict when he gets older. But what I do know is I can try to give him as many tools as possible now, so that maybe later on, he won't reach for those kinds of things. Because hopefully, he will have better tools. And there was a local organization in St. Louis called Friends of kids with cancer that we had gotten connected with a couple months after Jackson died. I mean, since he didn't fight his cancer, we weren't connected with any, you know, resources. And so we were so thankful when they let us, you know, go to their support groups, and one of the things they offered was funding of the play therapy. And not having that extra financial burden, took so much stress away from us, because we were obliterated financially, you're not ever prepared for the death of your child. And then Mike couldn't work, barely, you know. And so, because of that, Ivan was able to really get the amount of therapy that he needed. And I know without a doubt that that is how he is thriving the way he is today. Because he got the therapy that he needed. And, you know, we Yes, we started early, but it's never too late, you know, like you can even if it's been a year, two years, 10 years, it's not too late. And you know, we wouldn't you wouldn't walk around with a broken arm, would you? No, no, you would go to the doctor, and you would get a cast. So why would we not do that for our mental health? Yeah, and so that's kind of my approach to it. And, you know, there's, we know a lot more now than we did like, when we were kids, or like, when our parents were raising this, you know, they just didn't know about it, they didn't talk about it. And now our society talks about it more. And so really, a lot of what I do at the foundation is raising awareness about different types of children's therapy, because a child is not going to sit on a couch and tell you all about their feelings. You know, it's just not conducive to a child. But if you do things like play, which is the language of children, music, art, they have sand tray therapy, the trauma informed yoga that we work with here in St. Louis, they're the only trauma informed yoga for kids in the United States. And they've adapted the trauma informed yoga model to children. And it's amazing. And, you know, there are there are solutions, there are things that can help. And we have worked very hard to raise the funds so that we can help those siblings and help those parents too. Because not only has it helped Ivan, but it has equipped me with more tools where I don't feel like it is insurmountable, like it was in the beginning. Right? I'm not saying it's easy, and I'm not saying that I'm having a good time. But you know, there are there are options available. And you know, you don't have to do it by yourself. You don't have to drive yourself crazy. You don't have to ignore the problems that your child might be having. There's there's help available.

Melissa Bright: 49:39

Yeah, that's amazing. Do you have a way that people could donate if they wanted to donate after listening to this episode?

Carrie Schmitt: 49:48

Yes. So my website is currently under construction. In fact, when I'm done here, I'm going to meet with the person who's working on my website so we can get going again by um, we do have have a PayPal that we accept donations through. You know, sometimes people will mail a check or whatever, but I'm sure. Yeah, so I can I can definitely send you that link. Yeah, you know, the average. So the average session for therapy for a child is about$100. And mostly, the kind of general rule is that we'll find 12 sessions. So helping one child is $1,200. It is a lot, but I'm telling you, it's priceless. And, you know, so when someone donates $100, you're giving a child, one therapy session, and that means everything.

Melissa Bright: 50:41

Yeah, that's beautiful. So Carrie, and I will talk after the episode, we will get her information for her Pay Pal. If there was another way that you would like to donate, please feel free to shoot me a message or email me on my website. But I will get the Pay Pal from her for that. And then her website will be up soon. So keep checking back with that. Okay, so this is the part that I have not I did not make it to this part of your your podcast yet. And I cannot talk enough about your podcast, like, I haven't lost a child. But you do such a fantastic job on that on your podcast. Like, it's so beautiful. Um, self care. I know, you said that with you, you know, having to take care of a child. And then you're also married and trying to just live life, put one foot in front of the other. Let's talk about self care, and what that did and didn't look for you and look like for you. And then in a perfect world, if we can take care of ourselves. What should we be doing after going through an event such as yours?

Carrie Schmitt: 51:55

Yeah. Well, thankfully, I really had pretty good self care in place before Jackson died. I know I better myself, nobody else will. And I can't be what I need to be without doing those things. So again, Glen, our therapists who will hear me always talking about In fact, he I have an episode with him if you haven't come across yet. Okay. Oh, yeah. He had told us early on the exercise is like taking a 10 milligram Zoloft, you know, releases chemicals in your brain that really make you feel better. And I took that like the gospel. And I, literally six weeks after Jackson died, because I was, you know, I was six weeks postpartum, I got back to the gym. Because I knew I needed to do something to take care of my body because my body felt like it went through a meat grinder. Like, I mean, I mean, I had so much tension and stress and my shoulders. And, you know, I tend to do really, I like, I'm kind of masochistic, I like really hard workouts. And I just like to push my body, you know. And so, I've been doing that. And, interestingly, I have not lost one single pounds. It's pretty good. But I think my body is in protection mode. I think my body is sort of stuck. And so something I just recently started, which you might like this, I started trauma informed yoga for adults, and it's actually a grief and loss series specifically. So I just started it last week, and it's a six week series. And you know, trauma can get stuck in your body. Yep, yeah. And so, you know, for me to slow down enough to notice that because I go go go 80 mile an hour, lady. That's just how I do it. That's kind of how I always was. I'm kind of kind of finding that's not the best thing for me all the time. So, like, all lay down, you know, when I'm doing yoga, I'm like, oh, oh, oh, I never even noticed that hurts, too, you know? Yeah, I want to try to help my body kind of unlock some of the trauma that I've been through. I don't want it to stay in my body. Um, so that's another way that I've really prioritized myself care now. I don't know how much this is really. Well, I consider it self care. I love okay.

Melissa Bright: 54:49

Sure, it's self care.

Carrie Schmitt: 54:51

I mean, I love it to the point where it started off with I'm three times a week and then five times a week and then seven times a week and But here's the truth. i It makes me happy. Yeah, I like ordered and on my app, I like going into pick it up. I like saying hello to the Starbucks people that they know me by name. The first time they call me by my name. I've said, Are you talking to me? They're like, what you're here every day. And I'm like, Well, I'm like, You guys just don't know. Like, I've never they don't know me really, they don't know my story. And I'm like, You don't understand how happy you guys meet me. Like, you know, so it's like, well, I could be doing worse

Melissa Bright: 55:38

things. Exactly.

Carrie Schmitt: 55:40

I can do a lot worse things. So I'm like, that's how I justify it to myself. Yeah, yeah. That is one of my self care ways. And I like to write that's another kind of therapy, you know, thing that I found that really is good for me. And I've submitted some things and they've been published. And that's been really sort of like an accident. Um, I'll feel these tugs kind of like, okay, I need to write this, I need to do this. And so I'm like, a really just listened to the tugs that I felt. So those are, those are some of my self care things in therapy and support group. And I do it all, because I need all of it. I need help. I need help.

Melissa Bright: 56:23

Yeah, and I love that you do it all. When I lost my mom. So my stepdad was very. He's been in support group for 20 years. He's, he's been an A, so he knew all about the support group. So when he lost my mom, he was right into a grief support group. And he asked me if I wanted to go and I said, No. And I do regret that because while at the, at the very beginning, I felt that I was handling it, I now know that I was not handling it as, as best as I could. So I just felt that nobody in that grief group could possibly understand what I was going through, which is the dumbest thing ever, considering we're all there because we have a common denominator of losing somebody, you know, no matter how specific you can make it like in the support group, but that is a regret that I do have is not getting myself into some kind of support system earlier. So I just think it's wonderful that you threw yourself in that because I'm usually the opposite. I shut down. I don't want to talk to anybody. I yeah, I just shut down. And it's not healthy. I know that's not healthy. That's I got to share another

Carrie Schmitt: 57:41

Glenn ism. Yeah, do it now. So that I call him Glen. Glen says, You need to stop shooting all over yourself. Don't say you should should be doing this should be doing that. Don't do that.

Melissa Bright: 57:59

Oh, yeah. Yeah. See, cuz I was gonna stop you too. Because you're like, Well, I justified to go get Starbucks. And I'm like, if you want Starbucks, go get Starbucks. If you want to go eat pizza, go eat pizza. Like it's so easy to tell other people and give them permission. But then we're like, well, I probably shouldn't be doing this.

Carrie Schmitt: 58:20

Right. But like I said, it's never too late. You know? I mean, yeah, you weren't, you weren't ready for it, then. Right? Maybe you're ready for it now. You know, and again, don't shoot all over yourself. Because if you if you think think you should have been doing it, then. Well, you weren't ready. Maybe now you

Melissa Bright: 58:38

are. Yep. Exactly. I 100%. Agree. Okay, so we have covered a lot of things. One more thing. Okay. So I just want people to, I want you to talk about your podcast. You just started it in October. The song is absolutely beautiful. Do you know that person? recently? She wrote it for me. It is so so beautiful. I know. I love it. Yeah. So talk a little bit about your podcast. Your podcast is called Beautiful tragedy.

Carrie Schmitt: 59:14

Yes. So um, it's called Beautiful tragedy because, you know, the surrogacy was so beautiful. And it's something I'm so very proud of. Obviously, it got overshadowed. But then obviously, the tragedy is Jackson's death, but in our tragedy, we have seen so much beauty and I don't know if that's me learning how to reframe like I have through therapy. But also, you know, I think it's important to remember that you can see beauty and tragedy whether whether it's very clear or you have to look for it, but we have seen people say Support us and love us and just come out of the woodwork and, and you know, you can see all the negativity and all the stuff that's terrible in this world. But when you look for it, and you can find that there is a lot of beauty and there's people that are doing things like what you're doing and shedding the light on things that are hard, you know. And so with the podcast, I really felt like I found my voice. And I wanted to speak up and talk about things that are hard to talk about. Because I'm not scared to do that. And I know it's not easy for everyone. And I just, I want people to feel like, I'm not an expert, but I'm someone who's speaking my truth. And you know that you can survive this. You know, people think you can't, and you know, I don't know how you do it. Unfortunately, the statistics say that people do survive this. It's painful, and it's terrible, and I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy. But, you know, it's just really, I'm hoping to be an encouragement to say even just one little thing that could help somebody. You know, there have been some things that have been said to me that have not been terribly helpful. And I feel like, you know, if we can learn to be better, one of my favorite Maya Angelou quotes is you do the best you can until you know better. And then when you know better, you do better. And so if you can learn something, that is not a very helpful thing to say to somebody, then maybe the next time you encounter somebody, you'll you'll say something else, or you won't say anything at all, you know. And so it has been my hearts work. It's something I never in my wildest dreams would have thought I would do. But I'm very, very proud of it. I actually just had a person reach out to me from North Carolina. And she found my podcast, and she lost her only child, and she loved it. And she asked me if I could help her find some therapists in the area. And I'm just like, like, that's a win for me, you know? Because I'm like, am I going to change the whole world? Well, I don't think so. But if I can be an encouragement to someone who is going through every parent's worst nightmare, and if I can make someone feel just this much less alone, then I'm doing it, you know?

Melissa Bright: 1:02:38

Yeah, absolutely. And I think the structure of your podcast is so beautifully done. You know, it's set up the first episode is your story, then the second episode, you know, you literally address everything that a parent could be going through about the sibling parenting after a loss, you know, trying to hold your marriage together after a loss, bringing in your therapist, I just, I think it is so beautifully done. So after you check out this episode, please, please go listen to Kerry's podcast, because it's beautiful. You're probably gonna cry, but you still got to listen to it. Before before we go. So I have one question for you before we go. But is there any thing else that you would like to tell the listeners any advice? Anything we didn't cover that you would like to cover? Before I asked you my last question?

Carrie Schmitt: 1:03:38

Well, I guess I would just say, you don't have to do this alone. There are people who have walked through this, and it can be very lonely, but you don't have to do it alone. And you know, there's a lot of help out there. Obviously, it's hard because right now, you know, a lot of mental health professionals are, you know, very busy, but like I just sent a list to a lady. I'm just using the Psychology Today website where they have a lot of different therapists listed. So, you know, the way I end every episode is that we're all just walking each other home. And I feel so strongly about that. We're all just trying to figure this out. I don't think any of us know what we're doing, you know, no. And so it's like, you know, if we can just embrace that and know that, like, we have so much more in common than what we do different, you know?

Melissa Bright: 1:04:41

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. So you might have a similar answer, and that's totally okay. But I asked all of my guests this, the very last questions of the episode, so carry in your own words. words, what does the bright side of life mean to you?

Carrie Schmitt: 1:05:06

Well, um, I would say through my journey, I've learned how to put a bow on a real pile of crap. And I think that, you know, with a lot of hard work, I think we can do a lot more and get through a lot more than what we think we can. Another thing Glenn says is that you have what it takes. You have what it takes. So, you know, I think that he's reminded me of that, and he has helped me to see the bright side of life. I can't say I see it all the time. And I don't think it's realistic for us to always see it all the time. But that if you look for it, you can find.

Melissa Bright: 1:05:59

Carrie, thank you so much for coming on here to share your story. I want to thank you for all the work that you're doing. I know that it's not easy. But it's important, like you said, and we need people like you that that can get up and create awareness. And it's just everything that you're doing is so amazing. And I want to thank you because I know it's not easy. But I do believe that you have turned your pain into a purpose. And that's what does help you get through your day sometimes. So thank you very, very much.

Carrie Schmitt: 1:06:37

Thank you so much.

Melissa Bright: 1:06:39

Thank you, everyone for listening to this week's episode of The Bright Side of Life. I know today's topic was hard. But these are conversations that we need to talk about. Because there are people like Carrie that have lost a child and they might be absolutely lost on what to do. They aren't sure how to grieve. They don't know what to say to their other children who are also grieving. Or maybe their marriage is in trouble because both parents are so heartbroken and there isn't a manual on how to deal with this kind of stuff. Kerry did such a wonderful job on talking about this hard stuff, but it is the real and raw things. And this is what people need to hear. If you would like to make a donation to the love like Jackson foundation that we talked about to help grieving siblings get the therapy they need. The PayPal information is in the show notes. Also a quick reminder, if you have not yet signed up for emails, I would encourage you to do so because I'm going to be sending lots of free goodies your way via email this year. And of course you can sign up there on the website, the bright side of life podcast.com And lastly, if you know anyone that may need to hear Kerry's story, please share this episode with them because we never know if this is the one that puts hope back in their heart.