Understanding PTSD and Trauma. Michele Rosenthal's story.

Michele Rosenthal: 0:00

The door just flies open for you to go out and live who you're meant to be and leave behind the door who the myth, the lie and the distortion of trauma turned you into for that moment in time.

Melissa Bright: 0:16

Welcome to The Bright Side of Life, a podcast where people share their personal stories of struggles, pain and grief. But through all of that, they are still able to find the joys in life. Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode of the bright side of life. I am your host, Melissa bright. I hope you guys are having a great week. I hope you guys had a great Memorial weekend, weekend. So if you are an avid listener of the podcast, you will have noticed that I did not have an episode come out last week. And if you follow me on social media, or if you're subscribed to my emails, you will know that the reason why I did not have an episode come out last week is because I had COVID. Well, I still have COVID I've had it for the last 10 days. And I have been down and out. I am feeling better. I just can't get my energy back. But I told myself that I was going to get an episode out there anyway. So I'm literally sitting on the air mattress that my boyfriend got me so I can be in a different room than him while I edit this podcast, that's where I'm at if you can picture that. And hopefully I will be back to 100% soon it's just my energy I can't can't seem to get back up no matter how many hours I sleep during the day or at night. It's just the energy that seems to be lacking. But you know what I will I will take that. I'm just happy to be feeling better. So that is why it is so important. If you're really really worried about why there is not an episode out. You guys should subscribe to my email list because I will always send an email out if I'm not putting out an episode. So I can tell you guys why and it'll make sense. So that is why but we have an episode out now and today I am talking with Michelle Rosen blah. She is a trauma recovery specialist award winning trauma and PTs blogger Award nominated author of multiple trauma, PTSD recovery books, including your life after trauma and heal your PA P TSD. She's a popular keynote speaker and workshop seminar leader and addition Michelle is a certified professional coach, Licensed Master Practitioner of neuro linguistic programming and board certified hip Minitest with a specialty and trauma and PTSD, a trauma and PTs survivor herself, Michelle struggled with PTSD for almost 30 years. She affectionately calls her recovery process, a healing rampage. And it worked Michelle achieved 100% recovery. Almost after two decades later, she remained symptom free and Daggett dedicates her career to creating customized conceir trauma recovery programs for high achieving professionals who want to feel free of their past without overwhelm wasted time, or endless hours of work. Wow, that was a mouthful. Michelle, you've got so much going on. How are you doing today?

Michele Rosenthal: 3:46

I'm doing great greetings from the beach in South Florida.

Melissa Bright: 3:51

Yes, where exactly in South Florida? Are you like what?

Michele Rosenthal: 3:54

So think of think of Disney World and then go to our south.

Melissa Bright: 3:58

So yeah, my mind I'm there.

Michele Rosenthal: 4:04

So, so if anyone's familiar with the Palm Beach area, I'm just about 20 minutes north of there. So I literally left Manhattan full of PTSD because I thought if I can just get to the beach. I think I could figure this out. And you know, two decades later, I'm still at the beach.

Melissa Bright: 4:22

That's amazing. The answer is always the beach. Right?

Michele Rosenthal: 4:26

You know, it just is you know, everybody I'm a New Yorker, you know, like a diehard New Yorker. And when I left people said how can you do that? And I said, Well look, this the city will always have my heart. Yeah, but the beach has my soul. And I needed to get back in touch with my soul and I I'd spent half my life in the city. So the other life Yep, you spent your heart. The other half should be in your soul.

Melissa Bright: 4:50

Yeah, I love that. So I know as I stated before that you are a trauma and a PTSD survivor. So to begin this episode, I really Just want to ask you about your story and feel free to share as much or as little as you want. And then, of course, with a goal of telling us how you were able to heal some of this things that were going on with you.

Michele Rosenthal: 5:15

Yes. So our journey begins. And in August 1981, when a doctor just got, you know, he just he was he had a busy day. And he made a mistake and prescribed the wrong thing for me. And I had a general run of the mill infection just needed a general antibiotic, but the outcome was anything but a general resolution. And what happened was that I had the doctor looked at my chart, he would have realized that he was making a mistake. He didn't, we didn't know that there was anything wrong with what he was prescribing. For me, I was 13. At the time, my parents didn't know. And so I took this, this antibiotic that is, you know, millions of people take all the time, and I had a reaction that happens to one in 2 million people. And so I had an allergic reaction to the medication. And it turned me into a full body burn victim almost overnight. And I ended up in a quarantine Burn Unit room of a hospital in Manhattan. Doctors didn't know what was happening to me, they didn't they've never seen that before. And it took them about a week to actually diagnose it, which was actually two weeks in because I was home for the beginning of everything. And then when it all exploded, I went to the hospital, but they didn't know how to treat me or what to do. So imagine being a kid, your body is doing something nobody understands it's horrifically painful. If you've ever had like a tiny blister that bursts like just think about how uncomfortable that is when you have on a shoe, and then put that over your whole body. And it was horrible. And they didn't know what to do for me. So today, you know, when this happens, they immediately put people into a coma. And they don't bring them out until it's all over. But that was not the protocol in 9919 81. So I was awake for all of these and terrified. And even when the doctors stopped, they had a name for what was happening. They had no protocol. So it was sort of like trial and error every day. And then had a near death experience on top of it because it's a very lethal illness. So what kind of coping skills do you have for that at 13? Oh, my God, none, right. And so I came out and when I was finally released from the hospital, I knew I was going to make a full physical recovery, of scarring, but not anything that was going to radically alter my life. The problem was that emotionally, I was very aware of the day I left the hospital, I was very aware. I'm I'm it was that, like, there are no words, right? It was there were no words, I couldn't talk about what had happened. And I immediately shut down. And I knew that I was not the same person who'd come into the hospital, but I had no way to figure out, you know what, now what, and my mom is, you know, she was she was on it before I was released from the hospital, she made me like, she made me talk to a psychiatrist. But what she really did was make the psychiatrist come to my room, because what I did when the psychiatrist got there was watch a Tom and Jerry Cartoon. I mean, I'm dating myself, but it was 1981. Jerry was on at three o'clock in the afternoon. And, and you know, I just watched TV, and I told the psychiatrist, you know, you could sit there as long as you want, I'm not talking about it. Because in my mind already, and this is typical for trauma, it's when you have an overwhelming experience, you very often don't have language for it. And when you have an an intense emotion, you also very often don't have the words to describe or express it. And so it was from that moment forward that, you know, PTSD was only really included in the DSM as a diagnostic code in 1980. And it was only being applied to Vietnam vets. So there was no one looking at a civilian kid with medical trauma saying, oh, classic PTSD, right. So it just became I was a difficult teenager, and then I've always been an artist or writer. So after that when I got too old to be a difficult teenager, I became a temperamental artist. And, you know, it just went on from there. But looking back You know, had had PTSD been something that was really talked about as much as we talk about it today, right? I might have had an easier time because someone would have said, Hey, like, this is not this is not, you know, a mystery where I just thought I was crazy. So I decided to be as as good a crazy person as I could. And that did not work out. Well.

Melissa Bright: 10:25

Yeah, so temperamental artists, like what kind of artist were you?

Michele Rosenthal: 10:32

Oh, I was a playwright. I was a poet. I was a director and it's okay actress given the right vehicle. So I really I had, you know, I'm gonna have an MFA. I was like, Okay, I worked in theater. So, um, excuse me. I really, I had always been a writer since the time I was seven. So I was always doing something in the arts. Yeah. And while that changed over the years that the artist was always still my persona. It was always where my head was.

Melissa Bright: 11:07

Yeah. Did you find any comfort or healing and that like to be able to be an artist and write and stuff like that?

Michele Rosenthal: 11:18

Well, it's an interesting question. Right. So in the beginning, I wrote a lot like, I wrote a lot of very bad dark metaphorical poetry. You know, I didn't. So it was seventh, eighth grade, eighth grade. With the time my trauma set, right, it's 1981. I think it was eighth grade. That sounds right, third time in seventh grade. I mean, so I think that was probably seventh grade. So in the eighth grade, I started writing a lot of dark poetry about, like turbulent waters and waves with a heavy undertow. All kinds of metaphors of, you know, being like, sucked down and sucked in and, and darkness. So no, that was not helpful. And it wasn't until a decade later, when I was getting my MFA in poetry, that the writing became really, really useful. Because first I used I used writing as a way to hide and mask the problem. Because I became a playwright, but not just a playwright, I was a comedic playwright. We all know that comedy comes from pain. But if you're laughing, you're not really talking about the pain, right? So all of my plays that were performed, they were produced, they were funny. And they were not really dealing with any of the difficult stuff. They really reflected how hard I was trying to rise above the darkness in me. Yeah. And I actually quit theater. So this is an interesting question that you touched on, I actually quit theater because I felt it was allowing me to be superficial, and to extend the problem. And I didn't know what the problem was, you know, I didn't have a PTSD diagnosis. I didn't have a therapist, and my my mom dragged me to therapist after therapist, I wouldn't talk to any of them. Because I literally felt like if I utter one word about what happened, the image in my mind was of me in a straitjacket in a padded cell banging my head against the wall. Like, that's what I imagined if I had to talk about what happened. Yeah, so so it was an interesting moment, to get to after years of being in theater and having all these plays produced and having people be laughing. And for me to say, I'm done with this, because this is I can, I don't know what I need. But I know that I need to stop being allowed to have fun. Not because I don't deserve to have fun, but I'm not getting down to the deeper things that need to be said. That was why I wow. Yeah. And I decided to get an MFA in poetry. Because poetry can be funny. But I felt that poetry would be a medium that would contain me, it would give me a smaller size and shape in which to be held. And I felt that in that container, I might be able to be more honest. Wow. And so my, my my MFA really launched my trauma recovery, because I went to the bottom of it all. And, and my, my thesis was, you know, a book of poems all about trauma. And my dissertation was all about the psychology of creativity, and how we use identity in the psychology of creativity process. And so, yes, to answer your question, ultimately writing did it lead me it didn't lead me to healing. But it led me to a place where I could actually do the healing work. Right? That it was enormous ly useful.

Melissa Bright: 15:10

Yeah. It's it's funny that you say about poems because I was the same way. I love writing poems when I was younger. But then my poems were always depressing. That's how I got that out. So then I would, I couldn't be creative when I was happy, because I'm like, What do you write about when you're happy? Like they I only write and I. So if I was actually in a good place, I didn't want to write because I didn't want to go back to a dark place because I felt I had to be filled with Hardik to be able to write a poem. I always wrote poems about guys and heartache, but I just didn't go there and and write anymore with poems.

Michele Rosenthal: 15:47

Well, I'll tell you what's really interesting, because I completely agree with you. I mean, there are plenty of funny poets. You know, one of my favorite poets is Billy Collins, who's the friend of mine, and I, his his stuff is hilarious in an understated kind of way. And he's just one of many examples. But that's not my style, right? You know, like Linda Manuel has a great strong voice, and she's not hilarious, but she's fun, and she's spunky. But I agree with you, the minute I finished my trauma recovery, which was three years after I finished my MFA. I never wrote another poem again, ever, ever. And it's not like I haven't tried because my mom has said to me, like, why aren't you writing poetry? And I said to her, I can't do it. It's like, it's gone. Like whatever it was that created all of that poetry is gone. And now I write nonfiction. And I only write nonfiction because that's, that's my happy place. Yeah. So So I totally agree with you. It's funny how when you change psychologically, the expression and the medium of expression changes as well. Yeah, absolutely. Can change, not for everyone necessarily, right?

Melissa Bright: 17:09

Sure. So when you did your dissertation, did you realize at that time that it was trauma? When did you realize like, when did that word, become associated with you? And you were like, That's what I have. That's what's going on?

Michele Rosenthal: 17:26

You know, I don't remember the exact moment, but I'll give you my best guess. So trauma, my trauma happened in 1981. And in 1997. Yeah, in 1997, the stress of the PTSD that it didn't know I had created a full body collapse, I had been triggered. I didn't know anything about triggers. I had been massively triggered in March. And by September, I was not even I was massively triggered in March. And by by June, I was unemployable and completely dysfunctional. And, and my body was just on this freefall of mystery, mysterious illnesses that no doctor could figure out. I mean, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to be like, Oh, she had a trauma. That was a mysterious illness. No one could figure it out. Now, she has a slew of those. But nobody put the pieces together. This is like the early like the mid 90s. Right? Nobody's talking about trauma and PTSD or any of that stuff. You're not even I don't even think Google was around. Yeah, it was Google around that.

Melissa Bright: 18:43

I have no idea. I was like, 10. Six, I was 690. No, I was a little bit older. Okay. Anyway, yeah.

Michele Rosenthal: 18:53

So So when my boss so you know, an interesting fact, your mind is capable of producing 50% more stress than your body can handle. I interviewed a neuroscientist on my podcast years ago, and he told me that and I thought, oh my gosh, that makes so much sense. It just explains so much. Why the body breaks down and your mind is a mess. Yeah. And my body did completely implode. And it was at that time that I was terrified. I thought I was going to die. And you know, I I went I lost a slew of weight. I couldn't eat my, my liver, my stomach. My like, all my organs went haywire. It was just not what happened. Looking back. I know now I was triggered by a very similar situation that had created my trauma, but I didn't know what that meant. So anyway, I ended up in therapy because I was terrified. I was going to die because no doctor could help me my stomach didn't work my liver or was doing something bizarre and like, it was just No, I was wandering around New York City to all these specialists and I was just I had a meltdown for all you new yorkers standing outside, outside on, on Park Avenue. And you know, 50/49 Street, and, and I just stood on the corner, just crying my eyes out, I didn't know what to do. And I called my mom, my son, I'm gonna die because I had just come out of another doctor appointment. And like, nobody knows how to help me and I still can't, I can't eat. And, and my mom said, you know, when you're ready for a different kind of help, let me know. I said, Okay, I'm ready now.

Melissa Bright: 20:41

And what did she mean by that? She wanted

Michele Rosenthal: 20:44

me to get into therapy. She was watching me run to all of these doctors, like you're not attending to where I think part of the problem is like, she'd been trying, let's be serious. That was 1997. She'd been trying since 1981 to get me into therapy, because it was so clear to everybody. I was not okay. But I was afraid of fear. I was okay. Okay, you're fine to talk. Yeah. But it wasn't until this moment where I thought I'm going to die. And she said, I really think you need a therapist. And I thought, Okay, I'll do it. Because I need to learn how to live as as a chronic patient who's on the verge of death. I mean, literally, I was five, eight, I was down to 100 pounds, and dropping every week, like things were bad. And so once I got into therapy, I'm pretty sure that we started to talk about trauma, the trauma of what was happening at that moment. Ah, yeah. And then, you know, my mom, my mom met with a therapist before I did to interview him. And she told him my history, because she knew I didn't want to have to tell it. Okay, so he would have known that I had trauma. But I don't remember him literally telling me that, okay, but I do know that somewhere in that first year of therapy, like I came to understand, I had trauma. But it's funny, because you don't necessarily like you don't like, how do you put that on? How do you make that fit you? What does it really mean? I didn't really know what to do with that until my MFA. And I really started to get into what does it mean to have trauma and it? It really, it's such an identity changer? That that's what it meant to me like, I am not who I was before, and I have not been able to, to pull myself back together and discover who I was supposed to be.

Melissa Bright: 22:45

Right? Did you find any kind of relief once you found out at least what it was that there was an answer to? somewhat of an answer, like now, like like you just said, like, okay, but now what do I do with this, but at least now you knew

Michele Rosenthal: 23:03

that? Yes, yes. And this people are so divided on this, right? People don't like labels. So I went into therapy with a guy who I mean, he was wonderful. Yeah, wonderful. And with him, I was able to find language into to learn how to tell my story, which to myself and outside of my head, which is really empowering. But he did not know anything about PTSD. So he never diagnosed me for five years. I sat in his office talking about my story. It will be no surprise to anyone to know I was worse off by the time I left him. Because it was a mess. The more we talked about it, the worse I got, but there was no like he didn't. You know, we did a lot of tapping, but tapping does not get it done. It really is like life altering as well. For me anyway. Yeah. Maybe tapping is like the thing for somebody else. It was not the thing for me.

Melissa Bright: 24:05

Last night, what you're referring to say that again, EFT

Michele Rosenthal: 24:10

I did EFT I did TFT. I did ta T I did EMDR I mean, I did the alphabet. Wow. Yeah. So none of it. I mean, it made me functional. I was actually two years later, I was able to go back to work. But um, being functional being free are two totally different things.

Melissa Bright: 24:28

Amen to that. Yeah.

Michele Rosenthal: 24:31

So it wasn't actually that was I started with him. Everything imploded in 97. I started with him in 98. I got my PTSD diagnosis in 2006. When everything fell apart again in 2005, and I said, That's it. I've got to get out of the city. I have to get to a beach. I have to like the world has to stop. I need to get to the sand and I need to figure We're out what's wrong. I didn't know what was wrong. I came to Florida, the first thing I did before I even got my driver's license, I got a library card. And I sat in the reference part of the library and I started with what the heck did I survive? There's a name for it, you know, toxic epidermal necrolysis syndrome, what is it? And I looked it up, and I read all about it. And I followed the research and the research from that led me to trauma. So I really started to understand what trauma is. Because while we had used it, maybe in passing in therapy, there was no like, real discussion about what it is how it changes you what it looks like, all that stuff. Yeah. So I did all of this trauma research, I read all the trauma psychology theory from when it started in the 1880s in France, all the way to modern day America with Bessel Vander Kolk. And, and that led me to research on dissociation. Hmm. And I suddenly understood how I've been living for all these years, like, I literally used to sit in therapy and tell my therapist, you're looking at me and you see this body. But I'm really over here. And like, I'm off screen, really, I want to show you I was really three feet to the right of my body. And, and he never said to me, Oh, you're dissociating? Uh, he never said that. Yeah, so I just thought I was crazy. It's just amazing to me, you know, what happens when we're not informed? And this is really the power of the question that you asked, because the dissociation research led me to PTSD. And then I found a self test. It had 22 questions based on the DSM four criteria for PTSD. And I took the 22 questions. And I answered positively to 20 of them. And then, you know, you can't diagnose yourself. I real in all of my research, I realized there are people who are trauma therapists, like my mom had just taken me to a therapist. Sure. Well, they're actually people trauma trained. And so I found one locally, and I took these questions. And I sat down, and I said to her, I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to tell my story. Again, I did five years of that. I just want to know, is this what's wrong with me? I just want a PTSD assessment. And that's what we did. For two weeks. We did the assessment, and then I went back one more time. And to answer your question, in a roundabout way, no, oh, my god, getting that diagnosis was one of the best days ever. Because suddenly, the problem wasn't me. I've been blaming myself all those years, for being crazy for not being able to handle it for not having the courage to survive, for not having the courage to let it go, like all this stuff, for not having the courage to be alive. Like, the minute you told me it was PTSD. I said, Oh, my God, thank God. Yep, the problem is not inherently me, this thing happened. It's caused this and there's actually stuff to do about it. And that was a great day. For me. I know there are people who don't like labels. I know there are people who don't like the D. I love that D. It's not just post traumatic stress. Everybody has stress is a disorder of the mind. The disorder is not a disease and disorders like it is disordered. Everything needs to be organized. Yeah. And I loved it. And I just proof that was the beginning of my healing rampage. I went headlong into that I learned everything I could figure it out at the core of what I believe, which is at the bottom of PTSD are two things. There is a trauma, addiction and an identity crisis. And I pinpointed those two things and decided those were the things that needed to be fixed. I went off and fix them. Not all by myself, I found a hypnotist to help me. And within like, I think it took me one year, and I didn't work the whole year either. Because, you know, you get all like wound up and excited. And then you dive into it. And it it's awful. It's horrible. It's like worse than living with the symptoms. And so I needed to tie it back and take a break. But even with the break, I was done any year. So no, I'm not saying that that's indicative of everybody's part. But that's the 10 years I've been working toward freedom, everything compiled. That was my process and getting that diagnosis was the beginning of the end for me.

Melissa Bright: 29:47

Yeah.

Michele Rosenthal: 29:48

What do you think? Do you think that it's good to have the label or not?

Melissa Bright: 29:53

For me, so when you said that, I was gonna say I would take it another step further because we do just wanted the education. Like, I started my very first therapy back in 2020. And one of the first questions she asked me was, do you have trauma? And I said, I don't know, I'm not sure. And she sends me a list of like, has anything ever bad happened in your life? And I was like, Well, my mom died when I was 25. Okay, is that trauma? And she's like, uh, yeah, that's trauma. And I'm like, oh, okay, well, then yeah, I do. So that helped me to kind of understand some things. And then from my childhood, my dad being really, really hard on us and all this stuff. So I don't know if it was like crazy trauma back then. But limiting beliefs, perfectionism, all that stuff came and happen, so I wasn't gonna I wasn't gonna let it define me the fact that like, I had trauma. I want to tell you this other story really quickly, to see if this is what I had, because I still don't know that it's gonna veer off to the craziest left ever or right, awesome. Let's go. We will be right back after this break. Hi, friends. It's Melissa bright. I wanted to take a moment to tell you about the bright side of life coaching. Yes, that is my new coaching business. And I am so excited to help you guys reach your goals. Whether you guys have listened to this podcast, follow me on social media, or you even know me in real life. You know, I have been on a healing journey the last two years. But it hasn't just been a healing journey. It has transformed my life, I have my self worth back, I am so much more confident, I no longer self sabotage. I actually love all of me now. And I want to help you do the same so you can reach your goals. I literally picture other Melissa is out there struggling with these things, and I so badly want to help them. I've been there. And it's not a fun place to be, especially if we have been here most of our lives. So if you're interested in the coaching services, please go to The Bright Side of Life podcast.com and click on coaching to get more info or book your sessions. I offer a three month program or I offer a one off session as well. If you have additional questions, please feel free to use a contact page on the website. Once again. That's the bright side of life podcast.com and click on coaching to book your sessions. So in 2020, okay, first of all, I developed debilitating anxiety after my mom died. She died 10 years ago. And I started getting super sick to my stomach. I wouldn't say heart racing, I never had anxiety attacks. These were long hour long. Like I felt the best way I could describe it to my boyfriend was if somebody came up and scared you and your heart jumped. I felt that way for seven hours. Constantly. Yeah. And it would ruin good time. So it only happened when when times were good because I gathered finally in the seventh year of having it that I'm having this because I'm so scared, I'm going to lose. This is going to be taken away from me like my mom was taken away. My daughter is going to be taken away. My boyfriend is going to be taken away this moment in life is going to be taken away. Okay, so in 2020, I started smoking marijuana. I had done it previously, but I did not react well to it. But I'm like, Oh, now it's legalized. I can have it in. It's now actually like, I can measure this out. I know what the amount I'm taking. Yeah, for four months, I was fine. And then one day, I was really, really stressed out extreme stomach pain, which I think is caused from my anxiety and I smoked too much. All of a sudden, I started getting extremely not paranoia, but really bad thoughts in my head.

Michele Rosenthal: 34:00

That's very, you know, that's common, right? Yeah, yeah, we really can exacerbate it anxiety in a horrible way.

Melissa Bright: 34:09

Yeah. Oh, it got bad. And I thought I was going to harm myself, which I never have wanted to when these wouldn't and they weren't voices. I think this this thought was so loud in my head that I thought I no longer had control over my body. And so I thought I was gonna hurt myself. I didn't. Okay, so fast forward, things are fine for about a week. But then my boyfriend leaves to go camping, I can't leave because my anxiety is so bad. And then all of a sudden, my body starts just going numb because of the thought I had about that time that I thought I was going to harm myself. I keep thinking it's going to happen again. And I'm going to harm myself again. By that Sunday, I felt so out of control of my body, that I thought I was going to harm myself and I had to check myself into a hospital and how He, my therapist at the time said I experienced cannabis, cannabis induced psychosis. Then when I went to the hospital because I said I'm having thoughts of harming myself, and they, he diagnosed me with generalized anxiety disorder, no surprise there. But I think he also said I might have had some PTSD from this. Like, I was so scared that this thought was going to happen again. And my body would just go numb. Yeah. Does that. Can you tell me what exactly because I feel like you just absolutely know this, what exactly is PTSD? And in what ways can it form in our body? Like, how does that make us feel?

Michele Rosenthal: 35:43

Oh, okay. So, let's, let's see. So first, I just wanted to I've worked with more than one person with this exact situation. Yeah. So I just want to start from there so that you're not, it is so normal in terms in terms of the it's, it happens frequently. You know, we all think of cannabis as being like something that's just so neutral in that space, if you will, and and so calming and it's really not I mean, I'm working even with a client right now who wants to get she's she just is so addicted to it, if you will, and it has the worst effect on her anxiety just goes off the charts. And so that's, that's very common. And I, I've seen it over the past decade more and more often in my practice, actually. Yeah, so So what you're asking what really happens in the body? Well, let's let's just talk about it from the the basics of we have sympathetic nervous system and parasympathetic nervous system, right? So the sympathetic nervous system is your survival mechanism. When you have a threat, your body immediately swings to that side of the pendulum. And it's all about fight, flight, or freeze, it's all about shutting down all non essential aspects of your being that are not related to survival. So your executive function, forget about it, it goes offline, your digestion completely shuts down, your reproductive system, everything that's not essential for your survival stops and everything that's really essential ramps up so all of your stress hormones, your cortisol, your adrenaline, everything that you would need to flee or fight back. And all of your blood goes into your extremities, right instead of in equally distributed throughout your whole body. Now, we're supposed to do that. But there's a line in one of my books, survival mode is meant to help you survive, it's not the way you're meant to live. But with PTSD, it's like we get stuck in that aroused state, that sympathetic nervous system gets stuck. And I've even heard it said that sometimes your cortisol gets pegged at such a high level that your body just It can't come back down. But naturally, we're designed so that you would naturally swing back to the other side of the pendulum where your parasympathetic system would turn on rest and repair. That's what should happen. Like, you're supposed to get a little fright because a door slammed, and then you go back down, and oh, it was just the wind or whatever it was. And when that doesn't happen, then there's an odd thing that happens with the feedback between the mind and the body, right? Because your mind and your body are constantly informing each other. Now, when you get stuck in sympathetic arousal mode, you're stuck at a high level of cortisol, theoretically, you know, in the beginning, over many, many years, studies have shown that your cortisol actually does reduce. But in the beginning, you've got all of this cortisol, all of this adrenaline, so your body is literally sending the signal, we're in danger. And your mind, if it's not really wholly connected to the present moment, is going to freak out. Because it doesn't know what to do. It's getting these messages from the body that like the house is on fire. And so then you get into that weird feedback loop where it's not useful. It's not helpful, because what you really need is the mind or the body to be sending the message of the truth. Yeah, the truth is, in this moment, you are perfectly safe. does not happen when you are riddled with PTSD. And your mind and your body are in this feedback loop of terror, fear, anxiety Panic, and you can't breathe and everything about your body is reminding your mind that things are not okay. And then you have all of these thoughts that produce a neural, like a neural cascade, if you will, of bad feelings. Yeah, so you're literally when you amp up those neurotransmitters that are related to the adrenaline, the cortisol and all the other stress hormones, they dump down into the body, and now the body, every time you have a thought, you're creating a different neurotransmitter cascade. So if you continue to have a thought of how horrible something is, or how frightening something is, you're creating that reality in your head, and that is literally translating into a neurotransmitter cascade that goes down into the body, the body doesn't know any better. It's just getting the chemical information and freaking out, because that's what it's being stimulated to do. And so one or the other, the body or the mind, to take a step to the left or to the right, yeah, and reground. And that's where our breath comes in so patiently, yes, or less of breath work, and you completely change your physiology. And that that is an enormously important thing to remember.

Melissa Bright: 41:24

I just learned that. How crazy is that? How crazy is it that I'm 37 years old? I of course, I've heard of meditation. Yeah, but just now fleet mall from the self care summit. I interviewed him. And he we did talked about breathwork, and the sympathetic comparison, whatever all those words were, and he really made me understand. And I'm like, now I'm always consciously breathing. And I have never felt more calm in my entire life.

Michele Rosenthal: 41:54

It's amazing, isn't it? And you know, why doesn't anybody teach us that I'm watching. I have a niece and a nephew. They're five and eight. And they're in school. And they have yoga class. And meditation. Yes. And I'm thinking, holy cow, my life could have been totally different. If I were five, and someone taught me that, because then out of trauma, I would have known how to breathe right? Coming out of it. With all that anxiety, I would have known how to ground myself. I'm so excited for their generation to come up with, you know, every generation will have its mental health challenges, right? You know, the pandemics not helping there. But, but at least they're being equipped with tools that are designed to ground the neurology and the chemistry of traumas that they experience. Absolutely. Super cool. What's your favorite breathwork process?

Melissa Bright: 42:52

I haven't dive too much into it. But my boyfriend actually has an Oculus quest. And there's an app on there called Tripp, that all kinds of different things that you can do from like, focus to meditation to ascend to, like, so I've done those. I've done some guided meditations, something that like I'm really, really trying to do, that I've talked to somebody else is like quieting the mind and really trying to find the answers to like stuff that I worry about instead of overthinking. I want to know if that's like, counterproductive, like trying to do that while I'm meditating. Because that is when I get silent when I don't have distractions, you know. So I don't necessarily fleet taught the in for four out for eight. Then he taught the square or the box where like you I love the square. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's oh my gosh, that he taught me the straw thing like, were you like, yeah, breathing through a straw. I learned so much. I'm like, Oh my gosh,

Michele Rosenthal: 44:03

it's, it's amazing, really. And when you when you take it down to something as simple as just breathing out through a straw, or as if you have a straw, I used to do a lot of seminars for corporate. And literally, I would teach I'm thinking of one that I did with a law firm that I went into teach them how to better regulate, they were personally personal injury lawyers, they saw a lot of trauma. They worked with a lot of people who were traumatized. And I was teaching them how to regulate themselves and how to pass on these ideas to their clients. And I literally took in a package of straws and I handed a straw to everybody. I said, it's as easy as this. You know, you'll figure it out. You'll learn how to read like this and then you don't need the straw after all because just that small making that that small opening of your mouth slows down On your breath, exactly. is really to slow down your breathing. Yep. So

Melissa Bright: 45:05

I did the straw thing to the first time like after he after he taught me that and then like, the next day I did it and my boyfriend's like, what are you doing? I'm like, getting a straw to breathe. Don't worry about it. I think they're a straw baby. Yeah, get used to it. Exactly.

Michele Rosenthal: 45:20

And I love you know, I, it's, it's a little hard during a pandemic. But before, I love transformational breath, so if you ever have a chance to do that, it's hardcore. But it's incredible. It's not the kind of thing you do in a stressful moment to make you peaceful. It is the thing you do if you want to really get to the bottom of whatever you're carrying, and let

Melissa Bright: 45:44

it go. Okay, that's awesome. Yeah. So when, I guess with that conversation, I kind of want to ask you, because obviously, I know that you're a coach. What? If somebody is listening, and they're like, Okay, I think I've got definitely gathered that I have trauma, I definitely gathered that I might have PTSD. What where can I start? Besides going to a therapist or coach, like, what can I do at home to even start maybe trying to heal myself? I know, we said breathwork. But one of the biggest problems, I think, is pinpointing exactly what is the problem? Or where like when people say finding that, that spot that you're so wounded in your body? Like sometimes that's hard people are like, What the hell are you talking about?

Michele Rosenthal: 46:44

I'll tell you, you know, and a lot of times we're dissociated. So I think finding the spot where the wound is in your body is like, what I'm not even in my body, like, how am I supposed to do that? Yeah. And a lot of times, even if you're in your body, you're completely disconnected from your body. So which is a different kind of, you know, it's not a clinical dissociation. But you know, as someone who lived that way, for a long time, it would not be useful to say, well, where's the wound in your body? I don't know. Figure it out, because that's not where I am. So to me, I think the thing that might be more universal for anyone that that wound in the body doesn't work. For some people, they are very kinesthetic with their trauma. And that's why massage can be so powerful, you know, any of the body therapies, you know, like, tension and trauma and tension releasing exercises tre by Dr. David Briselli, is incredible. I have not used it myself, but I interviewed him on my podcast several years ago, I just adore him. And I think there are some people who really know they're holding the trauma in their body, and they do know where it is. And for that, I mean, immediately, I would say, do the body work, find the body workers because you don't need to work in your head right away. If you know where it is in your body. And if you know where it is in your head, you don't need to go work in your body, like follow the clues that you're getting from your own being. Yeah, would would be my my first recommendation.

Melissa Bright: 48:14

That's a good point. That's a good point. Okay, we're gonna back it up a little bit. What is the difference between trauma and PTSD? Does trauma have to happen to then have PTSD?

Michele Rosenthal: 48:32

Yeah, I mean,

Melissa Bright: 48:34

obviously, but yeah, you do?

Michele Rosenthal: 48:37

Well, no, but it's, uh, it's really good to call that out. So back before, we weren't allowed to get on stages in front of real people, and back before we were all forced to be on Zoom, I used to do this fun exercise. When I would speak, I would go in there, like, however many hundreds or 1000s of people are in a room. And I would say, at the very beginning, at the very like when I first come out on stage, I would tell everybody a pop quiz. But don't worry, you're all going to pass because it's a simple yes or no answer. And I know you know the answer. And I said, so I want everybody who's ever had an experience that felt less than good to go to the right side of the room. And everybody who's never had an experience that felt less than good to go to the left side of the room, I say, so there's the pop quiz. You're either on the right side or the left side, go. And of course, everybody stands up and moves to the right side of the room. And you know, it's kind of hilarious to watch the entire crowd that way and everybody starts to laugh. And they don't understand like, what are we doing? It's like kind of a nervous laughter like this. Right? Like, we're all moving to this side of the room. Why are we doing this? Yeah. And then I say congratulations, you know, you've all moved to the trauma survivor side of the room. And we all look at the left side of the room. Why is there nobody over there? Because it's part of the human condition to have have an experience that felt less than good. And that's not my definition. I interviewed on my podcast, Dr. Judy crane. She's the founder of a really amazing Trauma Recovery Center here in Ocala, Florida. And she's the one who said to me, the base, truck based definition of trauma is any experience that feels less than good. So that's one definition. Another definition is any experience that overwhelms your ability to cope. So the one is like any experience that feels less than good means every single person, the minute you take your first breath, you are a trauma survivor, because that felt less than good to do that. Yeah, like, getting to that moment felt probably not so good, if you can remember it, right. So we're all trauma survivors, we're all trauma survivors. And then some of us are major trauma survivors, where we really have had an experience that overwhelms our ability to cope. And that caused you to fear for your emotional, physical or mental well being. So it's those big life altering experiences that lead the way to PTSD. Okay, but let's be serious statistics have shown that up to 70% of all US adults will have a major trauma in their lifetime 70%. And of that 70%, only 20% end up with PTSD, which means 80% of the 70% are fine. Yeah, they're fine. And so what's the difference? The difference is that most of us, you know, the brain has to wrap around what just happened, trauma is a shock, it's a surprise. So the brain has to sort of wrap itself around recalibrate, recalculate what it knows about you, yourself, others and the world. And that's the phase of acute traumas, those first 30 days, as your brain does that, maybe you have sleep disturbances, maybe you dream differently, maybe you have increased appetite, or decreased appetite, maybe you shop too much, or you don't shop it out, you know, you have these little, these little idiosyncrasies. Now, PTSD is when all of that does not resolved in 30 days, when you go beyond 30 days, and you have mood disturbances that are consistent and constant, when you have hyper arousal that is constantly ongoing. So you're hyper vigilant, you're always feeling like something bad is about to happen, when you cannot stop thinking about what happened over and over and over, whether that's because you're thinking it, or you're dreaming it, I used to have the same recurring nightmare. And, or you can't talk about it at all, you can't go near anything that reminds you of what happened. So those are the four main categories, disturbances, hyper arousal, hyper vigilance, you know, going over and over and over it or not being able to go anywhere near it. So once you go past the 30 day mark of acute trauma, and you go into those four categories, and we all have those two different degrees. Yeah, it's not like oh, you all it's not like a, like a PTSD gene. Right? It's, it's an experience. And, like, I didn't have flashbacks as much as other people, but other people don't have recurring nightmares as much as I write. We're all different. And once you have those four categories, it's been more than 30 days and your life is suffering, like you're not able to maintain as functional life. Now we're getting into like, you're in PTSD land. Okay. And, and back back. We've, before I had my diagnosis, and even when I got it, like there wasn't people were talking about it. And if they did talk about it, you were slapped with that label and told goodbye. There was no oh, here's a protocol for this. And even today, there's no protocol because healing is intensely individual. But what we do have now are 1000 different therapeutic interventions. And you just have to keep trying them until you put together your unique package.

Melissa Bright: 54:41

Yeah. So I love the way that you said that you your unique package because it does look different for everybody. You know what I enjoy doing and that helps me might not be what the next person will enjoy or want to do or experience Whatever.

Michele Rosenthal: 55:01

That's so true, and there's no one way to do it. Yeah, you know, you do not have to have talk therapy in order to heal, you do not have to talk about it flat out vehemently want that message to be heard, you do not need to talk about it to heal it. You don't even have to remember it to heal it. Because you're not going back to try to heal the thing that happened. You're trying to heal the way you're feeling about it. And the way you're thinking about yourself because of it, and the meaning that you have attached to it, all of that stuff is in the present moment. It is not in the details of the past. In the overarching view, I'm not saying that there aren't specific details that aren't important to retrieve or recover or examine if that's important to you. I never wanted to do that. And I never, I never did do that I never sat and and fully went down into the depth of the the experience in its excruciating terror. What what took me down such a bad route with therapy was constantly talking about that I was a trauma like that I that I had trauma, that I was not okay, that I was fearful that it was like just too much talking instead of just fixing it. Yeah. And we know now the neuroscience, the more you create and perpetuate neural pathways around anything, the stronger they become good or bad, or you keep making me talk about this thing I don't want to talk about no matter how superficially or how, like, where we go, really what you're doing his lighting up all those neural pathways for me for 60 minutes every week, and then leaving me on my own with them for the rest of the week. Not helpful.

Melissa Bright: 56:57

No, no. That Yeah. And it's funny that you say that because I did therapy for a while. And that was my first like healing. So it was helpful to at least talk about it get educated about why the hell my body's even experiencing it. Yes, anxiety, yes. But there were definitely days that I just didn't want to talk about it, I was in a good mood, I don't want to go back.

Michele Rosenthal: 57:27

And you bring up a really important point because I you know, I can come off kind of cavalier about talk therapy, because I really feel like in excess, it is a very bad thing. If for nothing else, that it holds you where you are. But I do feel that therapy is a great place to start. So that you can learn how to put language Yeah. To what is going on for you, you You called out the education piece, which is so important. And I think it's also important to learn how to tell your story. I just think once you know how to tell it, you need to stop. Yeah, it's like that fast. Like as soon as you know, you can tell your story, boom, I think you can stop. Yep. Because you don't want to keep strengthening the neural pathways of that story, because that story is the problem. And so I think it's a delicate balance.

Melissa Bright: 58:22

Yeah. And it's funny that you said that too. Because last year I talked about my story a lot in 2020. Like when I came out with my podcast, my story, you know, my mom died. Then last year, my dad died. Now I have no parents here left on this earth. Blah, blah, blah. Like that's my story. And then last year, can you hear my puppy by the way? At all? No. Okay, good love to he's he. My boyfriend left of course. And now I was so scared. I put him in the nether room besides this, because you would definitely be able to hear him a fuse right here. But he's losing his mind. But anyway,

Michele Rosenthal: 58:58

oh, go get him bring him in behind me, you know, well,

Melissa Bright: 59:02

he will freak out. And then he'll bark at the thing, but I might go get them in a minute. Anyways, after last year, I kind of told myself that I don't want to be stuck in that story anymore. Like, I know what has hurt me in the past. I know that I don't have parents here anymore. But I don't want that to be my label that I'm a victim. I want in your right. I was just kind of, I don't want to say over telling that story. But I just didn't want to sit in that anymore.

Michele Rosenthal: 59:29

I think that's so smart. I think that's so smart. And you're getting there so fast, which is you know, just shows what kind of person you are. That you're able to hold that space for yourself. And to know that is amazing.

Melissa Bright: 59:43

Yeah, I noticed that. Really good. Yeah. One thing I noticed I because I went and looked at your website and the quote that is literally at the bottom of your website says stop talking about the past start healing the present. That's what we were just talking about.

Michele Rosenthal: 59:59

Yeah, look Yeah, because because I think it's very the therapy, the therapeutic model. You know, people are not going to like this, but I'm just going to say it. I just feel like there's a problem with the therapeutic model. I heard somebody say once that, how long is it going to take to heal? As much time as you have? And I just I have a problem with that, like, I decided not to be not to get trained as a therapist, because I wanted a model that was based on you getting out of my office as fast as possible. Yeah, not you being in my office year after year after year after year, because there's no protocol to like, get you out. If we're just gonna keep talking and talking and talking about it. There's always more to talk about. The question is usually like, when do you start living your life and stop talking about what's been wrong in the past? So you have to step into your future at some point. Yeah. And I, I get riled up about that. I love

Melissa Bright: 1:01:07

that. And we need people to like you to challenge that and to make us think and have people reflect Him, they might say, Oh, my God, she's right. I have been in therapy for five years, like, when is this? I still do kind of feel like trapped here in this in this space? When am I going to get out?

Michele Rosenthal: 1:01:28

And I think that's a if you're asking yourself those questions, then that's a great time to get out of therapy and into the alternative modalities, whatever they are, you know, there are so many at this point. But you know, it when I realized that therapy was really causing me to disintegrate, you know, up until then, I hadn't been well, but I'd sort of been holding it together. And then I had that like moment on Park Avenue, and I was really terrified. And so I went into therapy, but five years later, guess what, I was, like, worse off. I it was, it was bad. And, and it was at that point that I realized I have to stop talking about all this stuff. Because I'm only just reinforcing. Seeing myself as this fragile, yep. damaged. Out of control, hopeless, crazy person. And who needs to keep talking about that? You know, and then once I did all of that research, and I realized, oh, PTSD, okay, well, then I started researching, how do you heal PTSD? And let's be serious in the early 2000s. There weren't a lot of people talking about how possible that was. So I was really I felt very alone. But I just started like, Okay, I'll try this. I'll try this. I mean, I did hypnosis. It was like, for all of us sports enthusiasts. It was like my, my, like, Hail Mary pass, you know, from center core to the three second buzzer. I never thought that that would work. I just didn't know what else to do. And I had tried everything else. Yeah. So you really have to keep going until you find the modality that speaks to you. Yep. And then it's good as long as it's good. And then you get to a plateau and then you say, Okay, I need a new modality. I need a fresh perspective. I need a new practitioner. I mean, who's going to take me to the next level?

Melissa Bright: 1:03:28

Yep. So very true. Last question for you for because I know you do hypnosis. is hypnosis. Like, is that the same as hypnotherapy? Like, is that what you do? Or no?

Michele Rosenthal: 1:03:41

Yeah, yes, it is in Florida, and Florida. I call it hypnosis and I call myself a hypnotist because different states have different regulatory bodies and rules and laws and in Florida, unless you have unless you have a title that makes you a part of the healing arts like an MD Yeah, okay. You can't say hypnotherapy. Okay. But it's the same thing. In the industry. We say hypnosis, hypnotist, hypnotherapy. It's all Hypnotherapist. It's all the same in the industry, when you're using hypnosis for therapeutic outcome. I mean, it just makes sense. It's hypnotherapy. But technically speaking, in the state that I'm in, I only would ever say hypnosis. Okay. Yes. But yeah, cuz,

Melissa Bright: 1:04:35

so I did hypnotherapy literally, for with one of my podcast guests. But, and she took me back to like, a couple moments in my life where I gathered my limiting beliefs from So is that what you had to do for your situation? Because I know that was really really hard for you to go back to that or did you not go back to that time?

Michele Rosenthal: 1:04:56

Don't have to go back.

Melissa Bright: 1:04:57

Don't Okay,

Michele Rosenthal: 1:04:58

let's go back. Okay. Very rarely, I mean, I'm trained in regression, I very rarely use it. Okay, because I work with trauma survivors, major trauma survivors, nobody wants to go back. And the funny thing is, when I first got trained, and I learned regression, I trained under this world famous hypnotist, who will like that was his thing. Like, if someone has trauma, you have to take them back. And everything in me hated that idea. But I learned it, I got my training, I got my certification, I was gonna do it right. And I did it with one client, she hated it, I hated it. I said, I'm not I'm not doing it again, there's got to be another way. And the fact is, I'm also a master neuro linguistic practitioner. And so I had other tools. And there's a lot of hypnosis in NLP. And I just let go of the regression stuff, and just really used all the other tools and everything else. And, and I love that. I love that. Because why would anyone want to go back? Yeah, if you don't have to, and I did not in my own dress. I should say, Don't remember going back. Because I am a great hypnotic subject. I go out. Let my mind go. And yeah, you do your thing. But I didn't really remember very vividly my very first hypnosis session as a client. Because I didn't believe in it. Because I thought it was stupid. I thought it was a total waste of time. I was chattering in my head the whole time. Like, what a stupid wouldn't not more money down the drain. And I was like, not nice in my head about it at all. So I remember the whole thing. And imagine my surprise, when that was the first night in almost 30 years, I slept eight straight hours. And without a nightmare. I'd been sleeping one to two hours with nightmares for a decade before then. So just shows you the power of what can happen when you really want something to work. I didn't believe in it. But I was so desperate. I wanted it to work. And, you know, six sessions later, I was done.

Melissa Bright: 1:07:15

Yeah. So that's awesome. That's awesome. You know your stuff. I love it. I love it. How can people connect? Oh, go ahead.

Michele Rosenthal: 1:07:24

Passion? No, no, I was going to say, you know, you know what, you know, just like you do, because it's your passion. And you bring your passion and your experience to this bright space for such a good reason. And you have such layers to the way that you do it, because it's coming from who you so truly are.

Melissa Bright: 1:07:45

Very true. Very true. So

Michele Rosenthal: 1:07:47

thank you so much for providing a space for all of us to talk about this kind of Yes,

Melissa Bright: 1:07:51

absolutely. So how can people connect with you and learn more about all the amazingness that you do?

Michele Rosenthal: 1:07:57

Well, just hit me up at my trauma coach.com All my social stuff is there. But also you can download a train a brain training mp3, it literally will train your brain for peace and calm. And I would like to tell you, that would happen in 30 days. But the truth is, mostly it takes 63 to 66 days for the brain to put in place a new automated habit, you can build a habit in about 30 days, but to automate it takes another 30. So that's right there. It's free.

Melissa Bright: 1:08:31

Yeah, I saw that. I'm gonna do that for sure.

Michele Rosenthal: 1:08:34

Well, tell me tell me what happens. I had another client in the office two days ago. And she would say to me, that mp3. What does that mean that mp3? She said, Well, first, it's just your voice. But then the thing is, you have all these different components. And by the time it gets to the end, I don't even know what you're saying. I don't know how it ends, because I fall asleep before then. And the amazing thing about that is she's she's, she's using it for insomnia. She has trouble sleeping. Yeah. So it's funny when you just like find a process that speaks to you. What can happen is really amazing. And I feel like that's really, we're all a key, just looking for the lock that we fit into. And when you get that and you can turn yourself in that lock, you can really change who you are, and set yourself free and then the door just flies open for you to go out and live who you're meant to be and leave behind the door. Who the myth the lie and the distortion of trauma turned you into for that moment in time.

Melissa Bright: 1:09:53

That was beautiful. Yeah, that was that I think is gonna be the soundbite. All right, I have one last call. Question for you. Okay? In your own words, what does the bright side of life mean to you?

Michele Rosenthal: 1:10:07

Oh, it means that place where your heart sings, it means that place where your joy just rises up and you lift with it. It's It's that place where you know who you are, is that place where you really, really, really, and I mean, really know who you are, and that everything about you is okay. And then everything you've ever done and everything you've ever thought and everything you ever wanted. It's okay. And there's zero judgment, and, you know, the purity of your own soul. That's the bright side. Because there's, that's the light. Right? That's the light.

Melissa Bright: 1:11:00

I feel that so much, so much. Thank you so, so much for coming on here. I so enjoyed this conversation.

Michele Rosenthal: 1:11:09

I you just are you have such a great way of posing the right question to go deep, you know, not just the surface, so things but to to be real, and to connect and to have a meaningful conversation. And so thank you for that. Thank you for inviting me to this Brightspace.

Melissa Bright: 1:11:28

Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode of The Bright Side of Life. I absolutely love this interview with Michelle, I actually interviewed her for the self care summit that I did. But it was more around self care. And I wanted to have a personal conversation with her about her story. And just all the knowledge that she has, because she's not only experienced it, and now she actually coaches people through things and has so many different modalities that she uses. So I'm just happy that I got to finally have this conversation with her. And I hope that this episode was useful to you guys, and you heard about all the amazing different modalities there are to help you with PTSD with calming your nervous system. We talked about breathwork there's just so many different options out there guys. And like she said, it's just a matter of putting together the right kind of package for you. So as you guys know if you know anyone that needs to hear Michelle's story, please please share this episode with them. Because you never know if this is the one that puts hope back in their heart.